Author Topic: New 2018 NRP scoring model  (Read 1427 times)

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Chris Puchniak

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Re: New 2018 NRP scoring model
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2018, 12:28:13 PM »
So far I like what I saw from the Nationals as an impact on the NRPs.  A good performance (top 10) really propelled some anglers to the top 10 (and right to the top for two!), but you didn't have to win for it to have a significant impact.  In fact, winning the Nationals does very little on its own to place you high, as you need multiple good finishes. 
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Clint Goyette

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Re: New 2018 NRP scoring model
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2018, 03:07:07 PM »
I have a question: what does this mean?

•    Level 5: up to 550 pts / minimum of 8 participants / 2 sessions / average of 5 top NRPs (minis)

Average of top 5 competitors? Does that mean a mini comp can only be worth a maximum of 550 if the average NRP of the top 5 competitors attending said event averages 550? If so then I think there has been a gross error in the calculations of the mini comps to date.

Thanks,

Clint
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Todd Oishi

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Re: New 2018 NRP scoring model
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2018, 03:31:12 PM »
The point values for the Level 4 and Level 5 competitions are based on average NRPs of the 5 competitors with the highest 2017 Transitional NRPs in attendance at those competitions (the last column on the right hand side of the 2018 NRP Leader Board).

The NRP system was overhauled and adjusted to allow for a more linear distribution between NRP points earned by competitors at any level of competition, so the NRPs on the 2018 NRP Leader Board were recalculated to allow them to transition to a linear distribution as well.

I hope this makes sense...

Cheers,
Todd
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Mike Learmonth

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Re: New 2018 NRP scoring model
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2018, 03:38:31 PM »
Hey Clint,

Here is an example using the Alberta Bow River, Mallard Point comp on April 21, 2018. It might help others who are trying to work through the numbers too.

Top 5 Competitors Transitional NRP points;

Kevin Cucheron = 485
John Nishi = 600
Jason Doucette = 623
Jon Toyad = 359
Mike Briggs = 290

So average is (2357/5 = 471)

In this case the average of the top 5 was 471 which is < 550 so 471 is the maximum point value awarded for this comp. If the average was 600 for example, the maximum of 550 would kick in. I quickly ran through the first few comps and they all added up. But if is something was missed, let us know or perhaps the example above will clarify it.

ML
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Clint Goyette

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Re: New 2018 NRP scoring model
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2018, 03:47:32 PM »
Can you give me examples of the BC ones? I don’t think the average came close to 550?!

Thanks,

Clint
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Mike Learmonth

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Re: New 2018 NRP scoring model
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2018, 04:20:18 PM »
Sure.

I'll break them out for you;

Deepfreeze

Todd = 750
Johnny = 577
Clint = 692
Matt Dirksen = 589
Brian = 324

Average = 586

Hence, the maximum of 550 applied to this competition.

____________

 Whitefish Festival:

Chris = 727
Todd = 750
Clint = 692
John = 577
Mike = 531

Average is 655 so maximum points of 550 applied.

____________

WestCoast Mountain Madness Comp;

Todd = 750
John = 577
Mike = 531
Brian = 324
Evan = 301

Average = 497 hence this comp only qualified for 497 points as the average was <550

Harmon Lake:

Todd: 750
Chris: 727
Matt Dirksen: 589
John: 577
Mike: 531

Average = 635 so the maximum of 550 applied.
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Clint Goyette

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Re: New 2018 NRP scoring model
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2018, 04:34:12 PM »
Thanks Mike. I just can’t believe that a national championship (a 15 hour event) is worth so little in the new NRP. In my opinion Catch  unit effort is not expressed in this new calculation.

Thanks,

Clint
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Mike Learmonth

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Re: New 2018 NRP scoring model
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2018, 05:50:37 PM »
Hey Clint,

Under the new NRP Model the point value per competition level is distributed as follows assuming maximums are used:

Level 1 Event 750 points - Nationals
Level 2 Event 700 points (93% of Nationals)
Level 3 Event 650 points (87% of Nationals)
Level 4 Event 600 points (80% of Nationals)
Level 5 Event 550 points (73% of Nationals)

It's important to note that the NRP points for these competitions are now linearly distributed as opposed to the previous non-linear model. The result is that Nationals become worth substantially more to a majority of competitors, not less.

I'll use you as an example to try to clarify this better (Hope that's ok):

This year you finished in 10th place at Nationals. (Congrats on both the 10th place and the Team Silver!) Under the previous non-linear model you would have earned 195 NRP points for placing 10th at this year's Nationals. Percentage wise that's equivalent to 26% of the NRP's taken home by the event winner (750 NRP). That is a large gap and I'd argue that 26% doesn't properly reflect the success of finishing 10th in a field of 35 anglers at the Nationals level. As a point of reference; in this years event with 35 anglers, the 5th place competitor would have only earned 45% of the winner's NRP's. Less than half the points for 5th place. I suspect you'd agree with me given how close the placing points were for this years Nationals that the difference between finishing 5th and 1st was quite small and perhaps even attributable to a favorable beat draw or some fish luck here and there. (The top 11 competitors in this years event were only separated by 5 placing points)

Under the new linear distribution system however, you've actually earned 558 NRP points for placing 10th this year. Percentage wise that's equivalent to 74% of the NRP's taken home by the event winner (750 NRP).  In a nutshell, your 10th place finish this year has allowed you to attain 2.9X more NRP points than you would have previously earned. This is the case for the vast majority of competitors and it is a direct result of the linear allocation of points.

I can share that The Board is certainly committed to reviewing the New Model at year end to determine if any adjustments are required. If you have concerns or thoughts to share we really welcome and appreciate them. Just drop a quite email to Kevin Cucheron (Secretary) and we can note it for our year end discussions.
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Ivo Balinov

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Re: New 2018 NRP scoring model
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2018, 06:11:28 PM »
Hi Clint,
Thanks for the feedback.
I'd echo Mike's post.
 If you have a concrete suggestion of how the system should be adjusted we would greatly appreciate you sharing it with the FFC Board . It will be considered .
We run quite a few scenarios when coming up with the the new NRP model and chose what seemed to be the best (while not perfect) but any system can be improved of course.
Best,
Ivo



Clint Goyette

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Re: New 2018 NRP scoring model
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2018, 06:15:38 PM »
Thanks Mike.
The problem is that nationals is 15 hours long and is worth 750 points. That is points per hour of fishing time. IE Catch per unit effort.

Any contest should be measured in time. That is how DFO and all fisheries are managed. An allotted time and a catch. 

So if nationals is 750 then a 4 hour event should be 200 points max. A 6 hour event should be 300 points etc. then you can factor in who shows up and give a handicap of some sort to said event and compare apples to apples. 

Currently the model will cause the demise of Nationals because there is just not enough worth tied to it to make it worth the expense.

Thanks,

Clint



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Todd Oishi

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Re: New 2018 NRP scoring model
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2018, 08:26:47 PM »
I doubt very much that the current model will ever cause the demise of the Nationals! If anything, it will encourage more participation at our Nationals, as competitors attempt to climb to the top of the Leader Board as we build a larger pool of competitors across Canada.

Reaching the top of the NRP Leader Board can only be achieved if you can finish in the top 3 at Nationals, as no other competition awards a similar amount of points. Take for example this year's Nationals... Ivo and Colin are pretty much untouchable, as they were awarded the 2nd and 3rd highest NRPs at that championship, which combined with strong performances at their regional competitions and championships, have secured their spot near the top of the Leader Board. This example emphasizes the importance of attending Nationals in order to finish at the top of the Leader Board

The chart below demonstrates how the linear distribution system would work taking using the minimum required level of competitors for each level:



It's also important to remember that The NRP Leader Board is just one of several tools that are used by Fly Fishing Canada's selection committees for selecting competitors for our National Teams. Another significant and very important factor is an applicant's current and past performances at Nationals. The NRP Leader Board is designed to encourage more activity and participation by competitors at all FFC sanctioned competitions and championships, which is exactly what it has been achieving this season and last year!

As Mike and Ivo have mentioned, the board will be reviewing how the current system has been working at the end of the season and welcome your and any other competitor's input, observations, suggestions, and comments.

Cheers,
Todd
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Todd Oishi

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Re: New 2018 NRP scoring model
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2018, 09:43:16 AM »
For those who might not have seen this; the following chart illustrates and emphasizes the importance and value of attending our Nationals, and how in the past it really only had a significant point value for the top 3 or 4 competitors, which IMHO was very discouraging for those who place outside of the Top 4 positions and especially those that finish 4th place (50% of the point for 1st place) and lower.

The current model that's being used (the far right column) immensely improves the point allocation for 95% of the competitors, as it tightens the point gap between each position.


For me, the quality of a trout is not measured in inches or pounds, but rather by the journey and circumstances that allowed our paths to cross...

Ivo Balinov

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Re: New 2018 NRP scoring model
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2018, 04:39:58 PM »
Thanks Ivo for clarification. My main point is if FFC can and will award NRP points for non-canadian competition. The reasons mentioned in my post are more or less personal.
However, I'm not shy of "rolling up my sleeves"  ;-) and I will organize comps or helping others to do that as I did before.

Hi Ionut,

I am sure FFC will give this  a consideration.
Personally , I think a key factor that has to be kept in mind is whether a competitor seeking to get NRPs from an US event has had a reasonable opportunity to attend Canadian competitions. We should examine if there are cases of competitors in parts of Canada where travelling to a Canadian event takes considerably more time and finances as compared to going to a US one.
But on the other hand, we would want to avoid encouraging cases where Canadian competitors chose going to US competitions over attending Canadian ones that are on the same dates and just as easy to take part in.
Just my two cents.
Best,
Ivo